Category: Uncategorized

Faceless or Factless

Here’s a thing, a link to a piece which, as I type, I’ve not read yet.

A word in your ear: The art of making ourselves heard.

Never conversed with or even met Andy Martin face-to-face, but I know Andy’s writing (in the biblical sense) and thanks to a few Twitter and other on-line exchanges I believe I know him and his thinking pretty well.

So I’ll risk it.

Spent a bit of time the last couple of weeks tidying up many previous references to practical rules of rhetoric (and humour) – the point being that, unless you already know (and love) someone pretty well, we really must care enough to follow some rules of engagement. (And furthermore, there is no point attempting to fully objectify those rules; to make them “idiot-proof”. Like all rules, they are there for the guidance of the wise, and evolution by the creative, so long as that creativity is not simply abused to win or derail an “argument” – see love and proper dialogue. The last thing we need is the set of lowest common denominators that support idiocy.)

From the snippets already noted about Andy’s piece, eg …

… we can see that as well as the rhetoric of talking to each other, at least part of his topic is the remoteness of keyboard warriors that don’t have  that investment in personal (oral and visual) contact.

Precisely.

The reason I’m writing this without having read the subject piece is because I already had several on-line exchanges this week on this topic. The idea that too much free expression is degenerate, when it comes to knowledge and life in general, is fundamental to my long-standing agenda, a warning compounded obviously by the whole rise of social media and “fake news” in that same time. Exactly a week ago I wrote using This Week’s treatment of the Cambridge Analytica & Facebook fall-out, that we seemed to have reached a watershed – a tipping-point in recognition of the problem.

I could write the same again using this week’s This Week piece by Andrew Neil on drawing the attention of the whole Labour “anti-semitism” holocaust deniers to the brutal anti-semitic murder of holocaust survivor Mireille Knoll in Paris, also this week. Last week’s social media outrage was CA/FB. This week’s was anti-semitism. Outrage inflamed and misdirected by freely-expressed, ill-informed and largely anonymous opinion instead of the kind of care for the subject displayed by Andrew:

When I wrote the piece above on CA/FB maybe being a tipping point, I suggested:

All that technology has done is up the scale and speed of possibilities.

Well in a single sentence, that “all” is, as it always is, fundamentally wrong. What it has done is scale-up and speed-up the possibilities of faceless, anonymous interaction. Interactions without active investment of interpersonal relationship (ie love) can never represent proper dialogue in a free-for-all environment.

I had a rather telling exchange with Jim Waterson prompted by the Labour anti-semitism row:

That entire exchange sums up the point. In a world where the “news” comprises so many possible facts and opinions in disjointed (if any) contexts, it’s not that the news is fake – factless – but that its communication is impersonal – faceless.

In many ways, this XKCD cartoon about unhealthy conversational dynamics already says it all :

A final example from this morning, I use Giles Fraser as an archetype of the problem, particularly for the irony that he espouses a church built on love. He never – in my empirical experience – offers the love and respect in any dialogue (whether on social-media or on BBCR4’s Moral Maze) to abide by any rules of rhetoric. Simply destructive and dishonest behaviour:

Followed by the strawman of all strawmen:

“Good to know you think … <strawman>” – <roll-eyes>

And, as I type this final paragraph, I’ve still not read Andy Martin’s piece, but I will and so should you. He’s a much better writer than I am, and the fact is that we judge people on their voice.

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[Post Note: I’ll be back when I have.]

Sky meets VX – Me and Sports Cars

In 1980, after 2 years driving a much under-rated Hillman Hunter (1725cc alloy engine, great fun) I passed it on to my brother when I bought my second car, a 2-seat hard-top Triumph GT6 Mk3. Ironically – given the later story – we drove it more in Norway when we first lived there than in the UK. Left-hand drive, low-profile and not the most practical car for Scandinavian winters.

[During the family life taxi service period we ran 4-seat Saloon / Hatch / Estate cars (MkIV Cortina, Cavalier, Rover 216, Audi 100,  Seat Toledo GT, MG-ZTT and Astra) until deciding we didn’t need two family cars. I was at that time involved in working contracts that involved regular – several times per week – 100+ mile each-way driving commute, so driving fun and efficiency became the deciding factor.]

In Spring 2002 I took delivery of my “Tangerine Dream” VX220

Vauxhall VX220 / Opel Speedster (2001)(Wikipedia)

The car was hailed by the motoring press as a great drivers’ car and won several accolades, including Top Gear’s Car of the Year in 2003. The 2.2 NA (naturally aspirated) version was considered the easier drive of the two standard variants, and some journalists recommended that the Opel/Vauxhall car was better value for money than the Lotus.

Production ended on 22 July 2005, with no direct successor. It was not until February 2007, when GM Europe adopted the Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky into the Opel GT, that GM Europe had a replacement sector product, with no RHD version for the United Kingdom. The final production number of the Speedster was only 7,207.

In Spring 2007, by then living in the US, I took delivery of a Saturn Sky.

The VX220 was easily the best car I ever owned. Fun to drive (obviously), but practical with a surprisingly large boot for a mid-engined 2-seater and a space-saving detachable soft-top, as well as being totally reliable.

The Sky was (still is) fun and reliable as well as highly unusual. Totally different construction from the VX with the US (Ralph Nader) fuel-tank and bulky folding soft-top leaving almost zero boot-space. Unusual because I took it to Norway with us when we moved there a second time in 2009. There were no other Sky or Opel GT’s in Norway and I could never get it on the road more than occasional (very expensive) temporary tourist licenses. (Full road-tax as an import of that class in Norway cost more than the original purchase price in the US!)

When we returned to the UK in 2011 we brought the Sky with us and, 7 years later I’m still driving the only one in the country despite a total production of 34,000 in the US. Just taxed and MoT’d for another year, and the car next to it this week in the local MoT test centre – was a light-blue VX220.

Who’s a Crazy Female Atheist?!?

Leaving aside the click-bait element in the title of this YouTube posting, the choice of words is so disrespectful and misogynistic it beggars belief. Not surprisingly the bait captures plenty of trolls in the comment thread. Awful!

Context – We don’t see the actual talk by Peterson, and it’s certainly not a debate (not necessarily a bad thing) and I can’t see where it becomes remotely heated? Certainly starts with an awkward atmosphere, and doesn’t seem too well facilitated. Clearly also a religious Christian audience? The dialogue involves too-long one-sided spiels, so none too constructive. Goldstein clearly only mentions Auschwitz because Peterson already has?

I happen to like both Rebecca Goldstein and Jordan Peterson, whereas William Lane Craig seems entirely unintelligible to me, conflating god as both simply a Platonic good and a supernatural (omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent) causal agent. If God is everything and God explains everything then it really explains nothing. Peterson’s take on imperfect human reality in contrast to a conceptual perfection of God make perfect sense.

Adding “God” to the subjective > evolved > objective spectrum of morality doesn’t add anything to its grounding. She’s right. The Socratic Euthyphro argument she uses doesn’t “prove” anything, that’s for sure, it casts doubt between two logical extremes – typical Socrates of course – all it can prove is that it (god) doesn’t solve the problem. (And not the first discourse to stumble over transcendence and Kantian transendentalism. Ho hum.)

Anyway, not sure what thesis is being debated so can’t say much more about the success or otherwise of the discussion. Goldstein and Peterson continue to talk sense to me. Lane Craig ends on a nasty trick – asking to Goldstein to comment on a Pinker quote. (In my book Pinker is too scientistic, whereas in Goldstein’s book he’s her husband but she’s not this brother’s keeper when it comes to naturalistic explanation of ethics, meaning and purpose.)

Nice Jewish Guy?

This is an excuse to post the entire lyric from Tommy Womack’s “Alpha Male and the Canine Mystery Blood“ from his “There, I Said It” CD release.

Although I make frequent reference and allusions to lines from the lyric, I hadn’t posted the whole until today. Whether it’s a liberal response to a loose-cannon president or UK Labour tearing itself apart, the whole world is in this one song. The anti-semitism embedded in Western Christian cultural tradition thanks to a “nice Jewish guy” who preached love. Arabs and Christians, Pepsi and Coke. When it’s a band gig it’s rockin’ or “When it’s solo, people talking while I’m singin’” how I remember Tommy from 2007/08 (before car accident and cancer turned his life upside down.)

Alpha Male and the Canine Mystery Blood
Copyright Tommy Womack

Alpha Male and the Canine Mystery Blood
came to town with Death Cab for Cutie
I stayed home with my wife and my child
And six pack of beer.
I pondered that name for fifteen minutes
after I saw the poster stapled to a phone pole
On the corner of Grand and Twenty First.

That was a couple of years ago,
I was already in my forties then
So I didn’t go out on a whim just to see a band called
Alpha Male and the Canine Mystery Blood
Just because I liked the name,
Just because I’m twenty-five
And every day’s a stoned summer’s day

My band was always giggin’ then,
REM was still kickin’ then
I drove that Ford Granada Mom and Dad gave to me
after they got ‘em a Ford LTD
And there was music on MTV
I smoked my manager’s pot and got laid quite a lot.

Planes hadn’t flown into towers yet (*)
And we didn’t have a loose cannon president
Didn’t have all this credit card debt
Hanging over the house like a cloud
Ensure there’s not much more drugging allowed
The body won’t take it, the wallet can’t hang it.

Singin’ all the songs I’ve sang for years
When it’s a band gig it’s rockin’
And when it’s solo the people are talking while I’m singin’
They make me depressed, you’d think I could take a hint
My time came and went
Hell, there’s many nights I came and went

In a manner of speakin’
My conscience is leakin’
The world is changed and the good times are gone
We get to be the folks who greet the dawn
Of an age of mistrust, surveillance and sleaze
And bombs in shoes and way too many enemies.

I bet their name was Menstrual Blood
And the A&R guy said that’s no good
Make it Mystery and then we can target
a broader-based goth dog-loving market

I love my boy he’s becomin’ a drummer
Got a drumkit from Santa at this rate by summer
He’ll be keepin’ a beat in a world
That needs a metronome shoved up its ass so hard
That all voices’ll raise in a heavenly choir
Shit’ll get straight; bothers’ll hug
We’ll dance like we did in the decades of drugs

I’m spittin’ my genes in an ocean that’s risin’
Clingin’ to Jesus with some compromisin’
About what was handed to me from my Mom
And Daddy the preacher
Who watched all that TV in a cream recliner
Frownin’ thru life like a stone hard liner

You couldn’t phase him
He knew Jesus died for his sins
And was raised from the dead
And I’ve always wondered why can’t he stay dead
It doesn’t change any good thing he said
What matter is his life and not how he died

Why can’t he just be a nice Jewish guy
Who was super clued-in and showed us the way
To salvation from sin
And that doesn’t mean that you’re not quote-unquote “saved”
You fry like a piece of country ham in your grave

It’s a great big world and life is a joke
Arabs and Christians, Pepsi and Coke
People so gorgeous it causes ‘em pain
And nobody gives any sympathy for somethin’ like that
You suffer in silence or form a band
With a name that appeals to goth dog-lovers everywhere

On a poster that’s seen by a forty-ish bastard
Walking to work at eight-fifteen,
Eleven an hour for all that he does
Can’t be a has-been if you never was
Going all day-long without eatin’
Till all my nerve endin’s are seriously overheatin’
My legs get wobbly walkin’ down the stairs
To smoke me a cigarette out in the cold fresh air

Wonderin’ why I do the things I do
And I do ‘em everyday
And it can’t turn out good living this way
But live this life I must
And in some fuzzy god I’ll trust

I’ll kiss my wife, I’ll kiss my son
And maybe someday I’ll go for a run
And may some day a song’ll stick
And I’ll walk around like I got a big … boat

And maybe someday my boy’ll drum
In a hippy jam band that plays out some
He’ll take after Daddy and get in a van
Go somewhere only young people can

Doing things only young people do
Banging those skins at Bonnaroo
Rockin’ the dreadheads dancin’ in the mud
Before Alpha Male and the Canine Mystery Blood
God go with him,

Amen

[(*) For me the allusion to 9/11 resonates, because as mentioned elsewhere, the original footer to this blog, it was 9/11 that gave me the kick in the pants to switch from nagging doubts to active research.]

[Lyrics above from the original CD / T-Shirt version.
Slightly cleaned-up and updated variations in later broadcast versions.]

[Tommy is most active on Facebook these days. As well as experiencing his poetry through his music, you should read him too. “Cheese Chronicles – the true story of a rock’n’roll band you’ve never heard of.” is full of humanity and wit. And from 2018 his “Dust Bunnies” memoir fills out more of his story in similar style.]

This Watershed Week?

I started to draft this post several days ago, a day or two after Channel 4 News first broke the Cambridge Analytica / Facebook story, and as they followed-up that story and its Trump / Brexit implications the world latched onto the scale of the story …. and the outrage. Oh the outrage!

For a take on the outrage it’s worth listening to @TheSimonEvans in the closing minutes of this week’s This Week – a great take on the “I can’t come to bed yet, there is something wrong on the internet” meme:

In fact, given the week and the topic, that whole edition, the @JamieJBartlett piece specifically, and all the regular contributors, provides a means to capture most of what needs to be elaborated.

Initially I was linking this post to this BBCR4 Digital Human “Social Media Vortex” piece, broadcast coincidentally(?) about the same time the C4 story broke:

I disagreed with a lot of what this programme suggested about the nature of the problem, but it provided an opportunity to recognise the issues, which I raise below

[Before diving in, let’s not forget it was Channel 4 News and The Guardian and an international team of collaborating journalists that researched the CA/FB political story over many months, and we’re only seeing the tip of an iceberg. This kind of proper journalism deserves our ongoing support.]

Worth starting with the outrage. Sure it was “big” news – something many people didn’t seem to know about, or were in ignorant denial of, on a grand scale. Plenty to concern us, but if we’re going to be outraged, we’d better understand where things went wrong and address the right solutions.

Whether it’s CA’s cynical services, or Russian bots, the national and international political manipulation is clearly the top of the pile of concerns. The main ignorance (ie news) seems to be in the extent to which our contract with the likes of FB makes aggregated personal data available for public use and private targeting. Marketing campaigns, commercial and political, have always used – and guarded their valuable use of – personal data. It’s a psychological game in which we all participate at every level. Privacy or transparency, which is it? Neither. It’s a game, always has been and, as an entirely natural process, it probably always needs to be.

All that technology has done is up the scale and speed of possibilities. What many of us have been warning (for decades) is that how we interact with those accelerating, concentrating, reinforcing forces is key to our future human progress. For me the feeling is one of relief rather than outrage. “I told you so” counts for nothing, but at least fewer people are now blind-sided to the issue, so long as they address the issue beyond initial outrage. At last! I say.

Let’s leave aside several topics for now: details of Facebook’s business model with us (free use in return for use of our data); or knotty ethical boundaries in the psychological tactics using guilt and fear as well as beliefs and desires for marketing purposes; the fact that apart from the evolving technology, little if anything is new; for example. The national and international level political concerns here are simply the highest profile layer of my own agenda: human decision-making –  cybernetics – using “knowledge” to act. That is the psychology of how we understand and apply our own “rationality” individually and in groups of any size.

It’s about polarisation memetics. JP O’Malley posted four very quick takes, to which I responded:

And in the main dialogue:

And another thread:

So what are people missing?

That was followed by a 5/6 post thread that captured some of what I’m elaborating here. The conclusion of which is that legislating for every possible future use / misuse / abuse of the evolving future technology is the wrong strategy. We only ever know specifics of the future with hindsight. We need to focus on human behaviour.

Apart from “Plus ça change / ‘Twas ever thus” – key point is that what’s missing is moderation – think moderator rods in an otherwise runaway nuclear reactor? Think conservatism – we have to provide it, institutionally, individually. The way to protect freedoms is to conserve them. Understand fidelity & fecundity in evolution.

This is only 4 or 5 years ago, but already people were failing to notice the reality. Using increasingly available data to target social media was only ever leading the wrong way. Ask the Labour Party about Momentum for example:

To round off. Persuasion, whether it be about choices or seemingly objective knowledge, is a game and games have rules. In the game of life, those rules are mostly implicit and inevitably “gamed”. Gaming evolves rules by creativity. The last thing we want is rules cast in statute in advance of technological possibility. Careful what we wish for.

And finally, at the national / international governance level, democratic electoral reforms must focus on systems that are more tolerant of – less dependent on – polarising effects, because future technology can only ever reinforce these effects. It’s binary choice that’s killing us. And worse, applying the rules of objective knowledge to both sides of any subjective choice invariably deepens the polarisation. We need objective knowledge automated by algorithms like a hole in the head.

You would tell me if – after careful consideration – you thought I was mad?

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[Post Note: Jamie Bartlett’s one tweet summary:

As I said, leaving many detailed issues aside, this is important. Targeting is by definition small but real effect. The real influence on the specific decision can be small, and the rationale doubtful, but nevertheless crucial. What is real is the inexorably divisive targeting – the deepening of polarisation must not be ignored, in fact it’s the thing we must actively moderate by our own efforts. ]

[Post Note: And given the Grauniad was part of the team that broke the story, along with C4 News, this made @afneil chuckle:

Me too, but it reinforces the point that sharing and accessing personal data is NOT the problem. The issue is limits to ethical use of shared data.]

“The Denial” of Consciousness

I’ve been referring to those that insist that our subjective conscious mind cannot be real, because – by definition – their objective science is unable to explain it, as deniers since I first wrote on Searle, back here in 2005. Since then I’ve been like a cracked record on consciousness denial.

This week Galen Strawson has an essay extracted from his “Things That Bother Me: Death, Freedom, the Self, Etc.” (2018) published in the New York Review of Books.

The title of the extracted essay is:

“The Consciousness Deniers“

Many people already tweeting assorted quotes from his opening para:

“What is the silliest claim ever made?

Some people have denied the existence of consciousness: conscious experience, the subjective character of experience, the “what-it-is-like” of experience.

Next to this denial”I’ll call it “the Denial””every known religious belief is only a little less sensible than the belief that grass is green.”

He’s right. It’s actually a long and worthwhile read – I’m guessing it’s practically a whole chapter from the book. Of particular interest to me is that amongst his list of those who are explicit in their denial of the reality of consciousness is “the generally admirable” Dan Dennett!

Certainly at times in his long quest to explain consciousness Dennett may have seemed to deny the subjectivity – he certainly refuses to entertain qualia as separate dualist subjective stuff. But along with a number of enlightened physicists he has homed in on explaining consciousness as just as much a part of physical reality as any fundamental physics. The way we experience it may be “kinda” illusory – making us seek the qualia – but the fact it and our experience are real is beyond doubt. His explanation is deflationary. And Dennett has spent much effort putting many a behaviorist-psychologist and naturalistic-philosopher right on the topic.

Strawson is right to point out that a mechanical functionalist take on the rise of Information Technology – computing – may itself have contributed to the hardening of The Denial in the 21st Century, but Dennett shows how computation independent of its physical embodiment is what real consciousness is in fact made of and just as physical (as some physicists would agree).

Not been a fan of Strawson, but it’s good to see him taking sides against the deniers. It may take a bit more reading to find where he fits in constructive dialogue with Dennett.

Taking Down Jordan Peterson

It’s become a industrial strength polarising meme in its own right, to cast Jordan Peterson and anyone who finds sense in his thinking as naive boys or unreconstructed misogynist lads or indeed something altogether more sinister.

Where the use of the mcm (Man Crush Monday) meme is

Peterson is the kind of guy guys have a crush on – oh how we laughed. [I personally addressed this meme directly in this previous post. Mocking? See Court-Jester]

He’s insistent on using that metaphor, exactly to make the point about sexism. PoPoMo is very slow to catch on it seems. Some people still prefer to attack PoMo when many of us have moved on.

“Jordan Peterson may be an advocate of free speech but he is also something far more sinister“ by Sam Jacobsen of SOAS.

Interesting piece. Sure, he does say things that can be interpreted as sinister – on the intellectual dark web – in dialogue with other “conservative” commentators, even though Jacobsen agrees his position in the content of the Newman interview – non-sexist freedom and equality – was valid and straightforward. However this piece stinks with disingenuous rhetoric – the reason to support free-speech-platforming of Peterson is apparently to  to take him down by providing opportunities for him to damn himself in front of critics who know better, rather than play the victim of censorship. Talk about Machiavellian.

And from a year ago, by way of contrast, before the Newman meme:

The Abstraction of Jordan Peterson – Mapping Meaning in the Land of Identity Politics by Brent Cooper

Which is an excellent piece on an important topic Peterson understands well, yet Cooper already felt obliged to include a follow-post last year, before Newman.

“I have written a follow-up post to this article, titled “The Detraction of Jordan Peterson“, which discusses his overstepping and the critical reaction to him. I argue that although Peterson is an expert in abstraction, he commits vicious abstraction with some concepts.”

Exactly – polarising reaction is not what constructive criticism is about. And by way of an aside, whilst we’re on about “abstraction” today, let’s contrast Natural Inclusion with Abstract Rationality:

Back to the dissing-Peterson meme: Also properly analysing the polarising reactions that destroy any nuance in Peterson’s position (and using the same Eric Weinstein – intellectual dark web – reference):

Eric Weinstein’s Four Quadrant Model
by Rosa Laura Junco of The Knife Media

“… illustrating how the media stigmatizes certain nuanced views that challenge the status quo by portraying people who hold those views as prejudiced or intolerant.”

Absolutely! The polarisation means anyone on the “bad” pole of it is stigmatised and the nuance in relation to the “good” pole is lost. I’m not defending Peterson’s position on everything – but everything I’ve seen or heard him say makes sense as (small c) conservatism in a memetic evolutionary context. Fidelity and fecundity in footnote here.

Dialogue beats #takedown anyday.

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[Post Notes:

This is becoming a meme – ridiculing specific whacky clips of Peterson. This is indeed a mad exchange on a mad claim, but absolutely no attempt to understand his actual point.

And …

And the “Forward” smearing affair … 

It goes on:

Review of Jordan Peterson’s Stupid Lecture.

And on …

Friend who thinks he’s dangerous
(but doesn’t mean he’s wrong):

I was Jordan Peterson’s strongest supporter.
Now I think he’s dangerous.

And a friend who thinks he’s right but not perfect:

Jordan Peterson’s Evidence-Based Endeavor.

And on.]

[Post Note: On a positive note …

That much-spoofed intellectual dark-web conversation …

Massimo Pigliucci has to remind us of the listening half of dialogue:

Yep, JBP’s content here – and sources – is whacky pseudo-science. Only defenses might be in his intent in the word “representation” and in questioning why, what he was trying to achieve, in the original educational context? Surely not a serious scientific hypothesis! He clearly back-pedals subsequently and being loath to provide his own elaboration is a sure sign anyway as GMS points out. Ancient natural symbology has its value in understanding human understanding, even in Crick & Watson’s minds – there’s life beyond science, and accepted science is far less objective that many presume – but that life is in living dialogue. As Massimo reminds us, and as GMS (Genetically Modified Skeptic, the original vlogger here) demonstrates, understanding requires proper listenting to what is actually said (in context). And what is wrong – scarily wrong(!) – in one specific is not itself a reason to damn the whole. Exemplary.]

So Much Disingenuity

Could comment on any number of links on the Tillerson story, but I’m exasperated at partisan news channels making their story out of it.

Obviously, Trump previously communicated with Tillerson – even in “my people speaking to your people” mode – about wanting him to “step aside” at least the week before – clearly Tillerson conflicted with Trump’s line for some time and resignation beats sacking any day.

Obviously, Tillerson didn’t know – as Goldstein said – he was actually being fired until the public tweet, which is seriously naff, but then we already knew Trump is an effing valueless moron.

The two are not mutually exclusive.
There is no news, no secret, no mystery.

Fan Base vs Actually Listening to Content

Fascinating responses to this Grauniad CiF piece on Jordan Peterson – introducing him to new people who’ve maybe heard he has a fan base as well as vocal detractors. The kind of controversy that sells tickets.

Now don’t get me wrong, I do do obsessive fandom of humans I love from afar, but I’m no “fan” of Peterson. I scarcely know him. It’s barely a month since I clicked on any link to listen to or read anything by or about him – I’m a “post Cathy Newman” interested party and I like what I hear. I’m over-60 – male obvs (!) – and he’s talking about stuff I’ve been researching for 20 years. I’m not some snotty teanager looking for a psychological crutch.

The comments of interest are below the line in the CiF piece as well as on social media, like this thread for example:

It’s actually quite a balanced piece, properly sceptical but fair. Yet ironically, Peterson can’t even accept the possibility of error. I guess when you feel besieged even tiny attacks must be repelled:

Maybe some of his generalisation are “kooky” – his anecdotal examples are a bit off the wall, that’s part of his attraction for sure – but generally he seems to talk sense (content) and more importantly seems to talk sensibly in proper dialogue (process) avoiding gratuitous attack and defence straw-men and resisting gratuitous reactions to those that wield them against him. But nobody’s perfect I guess.

Being “based on scientific research” is a ubiquitous claim but only as good – and as relevant – as the science itself and, further, “as solid as it gets in social science” tells its own story. [Invoking the scientific defence is unnecessary and unhelpfully scientistic in my book.] As defence against (enemy) attack, maybe fair enough, but it’s not the proper (mutual) dialogue I’ve already come to expect. It’s what set the Cathy Newman exchange apart.

Still, I should worry! The slings and arrows in the threads are classic examples of the genre, and I realise many people from science and/or the humanities see being smart-ass as part of the game (see court-jester). But if people believed 1% of the reactions to Peterson – and to Gareth Hutchens and the Grauniad for daring to give him a fair hearing – then we are in trouble.

Is there any tiny chance anyone might actually -memetically, naturally, unintentionally – believe Peterson believes anything remotely like:

“that lobsters prove
that women should be
subservient to men” ?!?

Self-selecting fan-base and rubber-necking audiences pay the bills, but no wonder we have the intellectual dark web for proper constructive discourse. Talk about fake-news in mainstream social-media.

The “Guardian Pick” of the positive comments restores your faith (but even that draws the mean-spirited smart-ass crap responses):

“Whether or not everything Peterson says is “defensible” (You would need to establish by whose criteria it was to be so considered), at the very least it is always arguable. The reason is that, unlike so many of those who are prone to mindlessly parroting their own received memes, and which Peterson so rightly excoriates, he virtually never puts forward any argument which he has not thought through from first principles. That is the mark of a genuine intellectual.”
by Tim Cape.

As I say, even when content is imperfect, as it always must be, the process of aiming to talk sense, with mutual respect and good faith is the true mark of quality.

STFU and listen, I say. Talk is cheap and comment is free.

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[Post Note: And another Grauniad CiF piece sparking further threads:

Yawn.]